wtf björk?

[Apex]

REALLY?!



i´m quite surprised and very interested in her point of view.

in fact the hamas terrorist attacks sparked Muslim anti-Semitism riots in germany.

how is the situation in iceland?

[ekkert]

from wikipedia: "On 29 November 2011, the parliament of Iceland passed a resolution that authorized the government to officially recognize the state of Palestine within the 1967 borders. The resolution was passed without opposing votes, although several opposition MPs abstained"

in my humble opinion, the german public discourse is biased on this issue (perhaps for understandable historical reasons). i thought this opinion piece summed it up well.

[kiknos]

REALLY?!



i´m quite surprised and very interested in her point of view.

in fact the hamas terrorist attacks sparked Muslim anti-Semitism riots in germany.

how is the situation in iceland?

i don't really see why you made the connection between her post and anti-semitism.

i think part of the problem is that criticising the policies of israel has per se nothing to do with antisemitism. what are problems:
- people using the policies of Israel as an excuse to be antisemitic
- a part of the israeli political landscape using the jewish people as a human shield to hide behind when they don't want to face criticism

[Anak]

a part of the israeli political landscape using the jewish people as a human shield to hide behind when they don't want to face criticism

This is called "weaponised antisemitism". it conflates Israel's existence with Jewishness as whole and is used as a smear tactic against those who disavow Israel's war crimes (and the Western governments that fund them) in order to avoid accountability.

It sows confusion in wellmeaning people whilst ignoring the fact that Palestinian Jews have lived alongside christians and muslims for centuries. Palestinian Jews with Israeli citizenship do not have the same rights as Israeli Jews, if they are even granted citizenship, and plenty of Jews in Palestine are being targetted by relentless bombing. It also targets Jews who voice support for Palestine like Jewish Voice For Peace. Weaponised antisemitism is an anchor of Israel's genocide on Palestinians.

Björk has spoken many times about how Iceland was a colonised nation, and has spoken up for victims of settler colonialism all over the world. She knows what she's talking about

[Apex]

You CAN support the Palestinian people right for self determination without spreading lies and playing along with the demonizing of Israelis and Jews.

always with an open heart, but always seeking the truth. In these crucial and sensitive times, who do I give power to?
On 9/11, a lot of Palestinian people cheered and celebrated. Israel, on the other hand, cried and sent support and help.
On 7/10, a lot of Palestinian people also laughed and cheered for the inhumane activities of Hamas.

there´s no justification what hamas did to babies, women and elderlies.

as a proclaimed matriarch i would rather expect her to voice her opinion on why innocent girls and women have to suffer so cruel from war, again.

[odduck]

there´s no justification what hamas did to babies, women and elderlies.

There is no justification for violence ever (unless it's to remove a violent tyrant from the world).
at the same time, apparently someone just made up the decapitated babies...
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/midd ... index.html

[kiknos]

You CAN support the Palestinian people right for self determination without spreading lies and playing along with the demonizing of Israelis and Jews.

i don't really see a demonization of israelis and jews in that post either though if i am honest. i see a map whose veracity i would call questionable.

there´s no justification what hamas did to babies, women and elderlies.

as a proclaimed matriarch i would rather expect her to voice her opinion on why innocent girls and women have to suffer so cruel from war, again.

personally, i find what hamas has done absolutely abhorrent, but i also don't believe that it justifies what is now happening in the gaza strip. for the same reason why i found the iraq and afghanistan wars at the beginning of this century unjustified, the horror of 9/11 notwithstanding. that doesn't make me anti-american, nor anti-cristian or anti-white.
i just think, as many do, that answering to violence with violence is just going to create more violence.

[Magnetar]

There is no justification for violence ever

Except for every religion ever made up by men.

[Apex]

There is no justification for violence ever

Except for every religion ever made up by men.

/this!

I´m against violence too and especially when women are used for revenge like the hamas did and boys even spat on their corpses.
in berlin on the next day muslim antisemitists roamed the streets and gave out candy for free to celebrate the massacre.
this is why i think it´s insensitive to share such a (fake) picture.

[Patrigan]

There is no justification for violence ever

Except for every religion ever made up by men.

/this!

I´m against violence too and especially when women are used for revenge like the hamas did and boys even spat on their corpses.
in berlin on the next day muslim antisemitists roamed the streets and gave out candy for free to celebrate the massacre.
this is why i think it´s insensitive to share such a (fake) picture.

I also think this Is a topic people should really think before posting stuff… I’m with everyone that suffers for no reason. And I think it’s not always a bad thing if celebrities don’t post stuff about this unless it really adds anything.
And I think neither thunberg nor Björk managed to add anything valuable to the whole mess that happens.
The picture b posted is not very good or helpful to anyone.

[Anak]

Well if the maps are a source of contention for being either false or antisemitic then let's take a look at where they come from

While I don't know how exactly Björk came across it, the "Disappearing Palestine" graphic was made by the Palestine Awareness Coalition and displayed in 2013 on Canadian public transport and inside stations for the purpose of public education. It was funded by "7 different organizations supporting Palestinian human rights" including Independent Jewish Voices and Canadian Friends Of Sabeel (a Christian charity working with Palestinians and Israelis with a focus on Palestinian Christians).

The graphic depicts maps of Palestine and Israel as their borders have changed over almost a century. Before the state of Israel was founded, this region was previously called "Mandatory Palestine" and was under the control of the British Empire. Here's is PAC's description of each 4 maps:

The first map shows the dominant land ownership, culture and demography of the Palestinian Arabs under the British Mandate prior to the 1947 Partition Resolution. The boundaries of the country were endorsed by the League of Nations. Mandate Palestine became a geopolitical entity in June 1922. It was placed under a British administration with the express understanding that the Mandate would be of a transitional nature and lead to independence. The mandate system held until 1947.

The second map of 1947 Palestine depicts the division of the land under the Partition Plan of the General Assembly of the UN in 1947 (a division that was opposed by the country’s indigenous population, all Arab countries, Muslim countries and most of the third world members of the UN). Under this partition, 57% of the land was given to the Jewish settlers who represented by that time about one third of the population and owned some 5.66% of the land.

The third map of Palestine, 1949 to 1967, depicts the years following the partition and the war of 1948. As a consequence of the war, only 99 Palestinian Arab villages out of 674 remained intact. Several hundred of these were forcefully depopulated and destroyed (The Israeli historian Benny Morris counts 369, while the Palestinian Harvard scholar, Walid Khalidi, lists 418), or their population took refuge in safer regions. The process of destruction and expulsion was carried out according to the dictates of a pre-conceived plan known as Plan Dalet. This is why there are today millions of Palestinian refugees. The new state of Israel kept expanding into Arab areas and eventually occupied 78% of Mandate Palestine.

The fourth map, 2012 Palestine, shows that the only culturally independent Palestinian territory is Gaza and discontinuous portions of the West Bank in both of which Palestinians exercise only a limited measure of autonomy (both are under siege or the direct military control of Israel), interrupted by illegal Jewish-only Israeli “settlements” or colonies whose occupants presently number about 600,000. These colonies and the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem were declared illegal by the International Court of Justice on July 9th, 2004. The Court called on Israel to withdraw from lands ceased in 1967, and to compensate the Palestinians for the damage and harm it has caused them. All UN member countries were called on not to recognize the Israeli occupation and to take measures to force it to evacuate the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.

This is PAC's comment on whether or not the graphic is antisemitic:

The ads are directed towards the policies and practices of the government of Israel and not Jews as a group or as individuals. We do not believe that Israel is the “collective Jew” nor do we believe that individual Jews should be blamed for the policies of the government of Israel.

Jewish people have existed for centuries in the Middle East and specifically Palestine, as have Christians and Muslims. It's a holy land to all three groups, who are indigenous to the land. What is a specifically modern invention, as the maps show, is the state or political entity of Israel as it was established in 1948. Though Palestine previously existed as a British Mandate (and for much longer before then), it wasn't establised as a state until 1988. Similarly Iceland has always existed, yet gained independence in 1918 and was established as a republic in 1944. These are all facts that the maps attest to.

Plenty of this information is available publicly online (well documented on Wikipedia with an abundance of sources to start with), and I'm happy to look for sources to back this info up though I really recommend people do their own research outside of major news outlets.

[childwithlepro]

And maybe Björk has the right to express her political views without any kind of wtfism remarks or condescending patronization (or even mansplaining)...

Some people has turned her comments section on her social media into an history class full of tone policing messages telling her how "inaccurate" she is and how she’s "oversimplifying" the issue by posting that map.

Do you really think Björk is this illiterate and hasn’t got any background information on this conflict before twitting such a thing?

And making a call to share (in my view = the cessation of violence) is not to support Hamas or be antisemitic or whatever. It is in fact very in harmony with her political coherence of independence (Tibet, Kosovo The Faroe Islands, Catalonia...)

[kiknos]

I´m against violence too and especially when women are used for revenge like the hamas did and boys even spat on their corpses.
in berlin on the next day muslim antisemitists roamed the streets and gave out candy for free to celebrate the massacre.
this is why i think it´s insensitive to share such a (fake) picture.

i really don't see what c*nts celebrating people being massacred have anything to do with björk's post. she didn't post anything in support of hamas, which was the perpetrator of those atrocities, as you pointed out yourself.

supporting palestine is not the same as supporting hamas, or being antisemitic for that matters. there's plenty of jewish organisations (like the jewish voice for peace and jews for justice for palestinians) that support the existence of palestine, are they being insensitive?

do i appreciate her post? No, i found it simplistic and i would have appreciated it being properly referenced. but, for the same reason, i don't really think that we should read anything into it because we don't really know what she meant with it.

[Apex]

...No, i found it simplistic and i would have appreciated it being properly referenced...

you nailed what i´ve tried to say with my posts, actually. :-*

[kiknos]

the new yorker recently published a very interesting article by masha gessen about the issues with the memory of the holocaust, especially in germany: https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-week ... -holocaust

[humbuk]

shes just mothering